Interview - May 11h, 2005 - Larry King Live
LARRY KING, HOST "LARRY KING LIVE": Tonight, Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice, in her first in-depth interview since taking the job, just a
little over a hundred days ago, next, on LARRY KING LIVE.
LARRY KING, HOST: We're in the Treaty Room of State Department in Washington,
D.C. This is Harry S. Truman building, and this is the first in-depth interview
since she took this job, the secretary of state of the United States,
Condoleezza Rice.
We're in the Treaty Room, as we said. We're sitting right by the picture of the
first secretary of state, a guy name Thomas Jefferson. What does that feel like,
you and he, same job?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, it's pretty extraordinary. Thomas
Jefferson, of course, such a towering figure in American policy, but also, at a
time when the march of democracy is the most important element of our foreign
policy, someone who wrote eloquently about human rights, about the rights of
men.
One of my favorite quotes from Thomas Jefferson is: "The God who gave us
life gave us liberty at the same time."
KING: So, you taught him then, right? You would teach about him.
RICE: Well, absolutely. And -- but it reminds us too that this great defender of
liberty, great defender of democracy, that human beings are sometimes a little
bit flawed. Of course, he was a slave owner. And given that my ancestors, or
some of them, were slaves, is a sort of interesting juxtaposition.
KING: No, no anger?
RICE: No, no. You have to recognize that the norms of the times were what they
were. It only shows that human being weren't perfect then. Human beings aren't
perfect now. But what it says is that people like Jefferson and the other
framers of the Constitution gave us institutions that understood that human
beings were not perfect, but gave us something to strive for, to get better
every day.
It gave us laws and institutions and principles to which a lot of impatient
patriots, people like Frederick Douglass or Martin Luther King or Rosa Parks, a
simple woman in the South -- they could appeal to those principles and
institutions over time to make us better.
KING: Good term, impatient patriots.
What was the trip like? You got back last night?
RICE: Just got back last night from Europe. It was a terrific trip. It was the
trip in which the president was able to go to some of the new democracies. As an
old Soviet specialist, Larry, to see these places that were literally behind the
Iron Curtain just a couple of decades ago, that are now, in the case of Latvia,
a member of the European Union, a member of NATO, where democracy is vibrant;
and for Georgia, to be in that square where you had 100,000 Georgians chanting
the president's name and carrying American flags.
And I'll tell you that, for me, the most exceptional moment, just a moment that
gave me chills, was when they started to sing American -- the American national
anthem with this Georgian accent. And it was just -- it was so exciting to be
there.
KING: Oh say can you see...
RICE: Yes, something like that. But it was a great moment.
KING: Were you aware of the grenade?
RICE: I heard about it afterwards. Obviously, it's being investigated. I think
that the Georgian security services are working with our services to see what
happened. But it didn't disrupt in any way the flow of what was happening there,
and it was just very exciting to be in that square.
KING: They've been critical of each other -- how do you explain the Bush-Putin
relationship?
RICE: The Bush-Putin relationship is one that, first and foremost, is one of
respect, because, whatever our differences, Russia is a great country and a
great culture, and it's a place that has made enormous progress over the last 15
or so years. This is not the Soviet Union, and one only had to be in Moscow this
time or over the last several times to see how far this country has come. And
so, there is enormous respect. I think that the president and President Putin
clearly like each other. They have an easy way with each other.
KING: Even when they're critical of each other?
RICE: Even when there's criticism, even when there's difficulty or difference of
opinion, it's always respectful and even friendly. And of course, they have such
an easy relationship. I'll tell you, though, when the president got into
President Putin's vintage car to drive...
KING: Yes. What was that like?
RICE: Well, we all held our breath, but the president wasn't going to have to
drive a stick shift or something like that, but it was a great -- nice moment.
KING: Is -- people, maybe, are they wrongfully surprised at President Bush on
the world stage? He had been governor of Texas, not traveled-well. RICE: Right.
But this president has been through so much as president, and he brought to the
office certain characteristics that have served him well and have served us well
as a country.
I remember when I first met him as governor of Texas, and I thought...
KING: You were at Stanford.
RICE: I was at Stanford. I had just recently left -- well, I had left the
administration, this was in 1998. He had just become governor of Texas, and he
has such a sense of -- you have such a sense of conviction with him, that this
was somebody who leads from principle, who leads from a deeply ingrained set of
values. And, when you are president of the United States, there is so much going
on around you and you're being told and asked to do so many things, that if you
don't have firm grounding and values, then you're just like a will-o-the-wisp.
KING: And you can take that anywhere.
RICE: And you can take the values anywhere. And, going back to the relationship
with President Putin, it's one of the reasons that you can have -- or the
president can have a friendly relationship with President Putin, one that is
respectful, and where the president can still speak up for democracy.
KING: Can you disagree with him openly? I mean, does he invite that?
RICE: Oh, absolutely. The president is someone who prods people to say, well,
what do you think about that, and then to challenge you. It's something I very
much enjoy. Now, it's the kind of thing that I've always said the president and
I will do privately. I hope to get out of this town and never have anyone know
what I might have said to the president or not said to the president. I owe him
that.
KING: Your predecessor, Colin Powell, told me, though, you win some and lose
some. True?
RICE: Sure, of course, and he is, after all, the president. He's the one that
the American people elected. He's the one who went out and won their confidence.
KING: Want to get to issues and things. What about this job, if anything,
surprised you?
RICE: Well, I can't say that much surprised me. I'd been national security
adviser, I watched my great predecessor, Colin Powell, do this job with skill
and aplomb. I think we were -- we are personally very close, so I watched him up
close and personal, so to speak, go through this job.
But it is a job that has a great -- a great deal of needing to make sure that
the people who work for the United States of America, and the diplomacy of the
United States of America, know that they are supported here by the president and
by me.
Larry, we very often think about our men and women in uniform and the dangerous
and difficult job that they do. And their service is extraordinary, what they
accomplish every day.
We also have a lot of diplomats out there who are doing difficult work,
dangerous work. There's a plaque downstairs that commemorates, in memoriam, to
American diplomats who have died abroad. And so I try to remember every day that
more than anything, this is not about policy, this is not about ideas, it's
about people, because the people who carry out American foreign policy, in some
cases they may be the only American that someone in Georgia or someone in Sudan
or someone in Columbia may need. And so the people who represent the United
States of America, that's the really the strength of what we're doing.
KING: When we come back -- the national security adviser and secretary of state
have often, over the years, had clashes. I wonder, having worn both those hats,
how that -- what's that like? We'll be right back with the secretary of State,
Condoleezza Rice. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUTH BADER GINSBURG, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: I will well and faithfully...
RICE: ...and that I will, well and faithfully...
GINSBURG: ...discharge the duties of the office...
RICE: ...discharge the duties of the office...
GINSBURG: ...on which I am about to enter...
RICE: ...on which I am about to enter...
GINSBURG: ...so help me God.
RICE: ...so help me God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back in the Treaty Room at the secretary of state's -- this is your
building, no, it's not your building. It's a federal building. She works here.
With Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state of the United States, a little
over 100 days on the job. This -- we always hear about natural clashes between
state, security, defense. When you wore two hats, you go from one to the other,
what is that like?
RICE: Well, national security adviser has a very special role, first of all, as
the principal daily adviser to the president of the United States, and the
national security adviser has to be sure not to take advantage of that. You sit
just down the hall from the president. You're a few steps from the president.
The secretary of state, the secretary of defense are across Washington, running
great big operations, and they have to have the confidence that the national
security adviser is going to represent the views of everyone equally so that the
president has a full range of advice.
And I tried to do that. I tried to be an honest broker. I think my successor, my
good friend, Steve Hadley, is terrific at that. He is someone...
KING: You get along.
RICE: Oh, absolutely. He is not only one of my closest colleagues, he's been a
good, good friend over these years, and he is someone who is always going to
make certain that the president has the full range of advice, not just his own
views.
KING: Let's move to some issues. We'll skirt around. The Bolton nomination, is
there anything about his nomination that concerns you?
RICE: I just hope that we can get this nomination done, Larry. I understand the
deliberative process of the Senate, and they have a role to advise and consent.
But we need our nominee at the U.N. so that we can engage in what is really a
very important debate right now about U.N. reform, about the future role of the
United Nations, an extremely important organization to us.
John Bolton is eminently qualified for this job, and I'm the one who talked to
the president about having John do this job because..
KING: You pushed it?
RICE: Absolutely. I -- when we were looking for a U.N. ambassador, I thought
that John, with whom I'd had a lot of experience in his diplomacy over the last
four years, would be a strong voice at the U.N.
Yes, he's been critical of the United Nations from time to time, but in some
ways that is a great benefit because, at a time when the U.N. is undergoing a
considerable discussion about reform, looking at what needs to be done, it's a
good thing to have somebody who's thought both about the good and the bad at the
U.N.
KING: How about stories of negative treatment of personnel?
RICE: Well, I can tell you that there are a lot of people who worked for John
Bolton who are inspired by him and who are intensely loyal to him. And John is
hard-charging, there is no doubt about that. But he has been very successful in
managing people. He has been very successful in his diplomacy.
I expect that when John leads the mission at the United -- at the U.N., that
he's going to do it in a way that is respectful of the people who work for him
and that he'll get the best out of it. KING: You think he learned from these
hearings, too?
RICE: Well, we all learned from experiences like this. I learned from my own
confirmation hearings. We've all learned.
KING: You breezed, though.
RICE: No, no. Hardly, hardly. It was -- the confirmation hearings -- by the way,
the confirmation process, even those of us who have to go through it, at the
time it may not seem like something that you want to go through, but it's a good
process that we have, of having you to step back and look at issues, having you
to step back and look at questions about what has transpired. And of course, we
all learn from those processes.
KING: Do you expect him to get through?
RICE: I certainly do. I am very hopeful that when the Senate really considers
what has been said...
KING: Supposed to be any day now, right?
RICE: Right. And we -- there's a vote that's scheduled -- when it's considered,
I think the people will see that there is a very strong record here of
achievement, a very strong record of leadership, and that it should go forward.
I certainly hope so.
KING: How involved does the secretary of state get? For example, would you call
a senator?
RICE: Oh, of course.
KING: You do.
RICE: Of course.
KING: In other words, you lobby.
RICE: But I've talked to people on the Foreign Relations Committee all the time
about administration views, about how we see different issues. So it's not at
all unusual that I talk fairly frequently to the senators.
But the Congress is a co-equal branch of government, and they have an
extraordinarily important role in foreign policy, and there needs to be open
communication between the executive and the legislature.
KING: You said when you get out of this town -- are you going to go back to
academia?
RICE: Oh, I'm going to go back to academia, I'm going to go back to California,
which is the place you love as well. You understand why.
KING: You're not going to run for governor? RICE: I really would like to go back
to my life.
KING: You do.
RICE: I do. I love being an academic. I love teaching. I love writing, and right
now I'm concentrating on one of the most challenging jobs that I think you can
possibly have at one of the most challenging times, because we're in an
historical period where, if we all do our work well, the United States could
leave -- this administration could leave a future that is so much brighter,
where democracy has marched forward, where we have made real strides in the war
on terrorism, where we have lead the world in addressing questions of poverty
and disease.
This is a very exciting time to be secretary of state, but there's going to be a
very exciting time to be a professor at Stanford again, too.
KING: Any -- no one can be certain about -- everything in hindsight is easy. Any
post-doubts about Iraq?
RICE: Oh, I believe that Iraq is going to -- the Iraqis are going to turn out to
be one of the strongest affirmations of the universal values of freedom and
liberty.
KING: So nobody died in vain.
RICE: No one. No. Absolutely not. In fact, the sad fact is that nothing of value
is ever won without sacrifice. And we each, every one of us, I think most
especially the president, mourn every single death because every life is
precious.
It has been America's role in the world to defend freedom. It has been America's
role in the world to create conditions in which freedom can move forward. We
were just in the Netherlands, at the cemetery there, the Dutch-American
cemetery, to honor the service of those who, 60 years ago, helped to liberate
Europe from fascism.
We were, last year, at Normandy to celebrate and to honor the memories of those
who -- young men who liberated a continent through the Normandy invasion. It has
been America's fate and America's role, America's obligation, to help people who
were in tyranny to be free, and Iraq is in that long line of...
KING: Iraq's a liberation to you.
RICE: Iraq is a liberation, yes.
KING: We'll be right back with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in the Treaty
Room of the State Department. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UF: Soldiers, sailors, air men, Marines, and family members, I am proud to
introduce the secretary of state of the United States of America, the honorable
Condoleezza Rice! (APPLAUSE, CHEERS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: She has celebrated a little over 100 days on the job, May 5 was the
anniversary, the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. The new United States
ambassador to Japan, Thomas Schieffer, says he believes North Korea has taken
preparatory steps to run nuclear tests. You said earlier this week the United
States has no intention to attack or invade North Korea. President Bush once
told me, you never tip your hand.
Were you tipping your hand there?
RICE: No. I think the North Koreans quite clearly understand that we have a
strong deterrent on the Korean peninsula with our strong relationship with South
Korea, with our forces that are in the region. I don't think the North Koreans
are confused about the United States and our ability to deter any aggression
that North Korea might be planning. But the question?
KING: So why did you say that?
RICE: But the question is, would we somehow wish to invade North Korea? Because
the North Koreans, in their machine -- their propaganda machine, very often tell
the North Korean people that there is a plot to invade North Korea, that America
wants to make war on North Korea.
No. The United States wants a peaceful Korean peninsula. We just want a Korean
peninsula like, by the way, the Chinese, the Russians, the Japanese, the South
Koreans all want; a Korean peninsula in which there -- on which there are no
nuclear weapons.
And the reason that we have this problem is that North Korea has insisted on
pursuing nuclear weapons programs and a nuclear weapon. And so the entire
purpose here is to have a Korean peninsula that is nuclear weapons free. That's
what the problem is.
KING: But under the -- if we use the concept of Iraq, wouldn't we go in to
liberate them?
RICE: Well, I think you -- as you said, the president of the United States never
takes his options off the table, but we believe that this is a situation that is
susceptible to diplomacy, because North Korea has neighbors that are unified in
their view that North Korea should not have a nuclear weapon.
Now Iraq had for 12 years defied the international community. It had used
weapons of mass destruction. People forget that Kurds and Iranians and others
had suffered from actual use of weapons of mass destruction by the Iraqi regime.
And, Larry, I would be the first to say that North Korea is a terrible regime in
terms of the treatment of its people, the starvation that they experienced, the
prison labor camps that are there. And we are going to shine on that. This
president is never going to stop speaking out about the conditions of people who
are trapped in grave circumstances or about the need for reform.
But every situation is different and not every situation requires the use of
military force.
KING: If therefore diplomacy is used (ph), would you meet with North Korean
officials?
RICE: Well, we've had an experience of bilateral discussions with the North
Koreans, in 1994. And what happened was the North Koreans signed an agreement
with us, and then they went about violating it practically before the ink was
dry. So there's no need to go back down that road.
We do -- well, we do meet with the North Koreans in the context of the six-party
talks. We have talked to them in New York, where they have representation. So it
is not as if we are without contact with the North Koreans. But we believe that
the strongest vehicle by which to deal with the North Korean nuclear program is
with all of the parties sitting at the table who have an interest here. It
doesn't mean that we don't talk to the North Koreans in the context of those
talks.
KING: Are you concerned or hopeful, or both?
RICE: Well, I'm of course concerned, because the North Koreans continue to
pursue this nuclear weapons program. But one has to just continue to work
diplomatically, and one has to continue to unify the international community
around this goal. If we remain united, I believe we can resolve this.
KING: Is it the spot in the world that worries you the most?
RICE: Well, one doesn't have to choose between difficult places in the world.
Obviously, North Korea is an issue. I think the place that is, at once, both
volatile and most hopeful is actually the Middle East. Because...
KING: Volatile or hopeful?
RICE: Volatile and hopeful. It's -- it's got a history of a lot of violence, of
course, but we, at this particular moment, perhaps have the best chance that
we've had in a long time for a -- for movement forward between the Palestinians
and the Israelis toward a two-state solution. That means a Palestinian state and
an Israeli state living side-by-side.
It would require what is -- what is already going on there, the process of
democratization in the Palestinian territories. They've had elections. They're
going to have more elections. The Palestinians need to reform their security
forces and make sure that they're fighting terrorism. But of course, the
Israelis are going to leave the -- Gaza and withdraw from four (ph) settlements
in the West Bank. This is an extraordinary moment.
KING: Because of the leadership of both sides?
RICE: Yes. But I have to underscore the leadership of Prime Minister Sharon
here. Because this man, who in many ways was the father of the settlement
movement, has really now said that Israel and the Palestinians are going to have
to share the land. And that's -- that's a very important fundamental place from
which to recognize the need for two states. And one, you just -- you have to
admire him for that kind of leadership.
KING: Very Itzhak Rabin like.
RICE: That's a very, very admirable...
KING: We'll be right back -- we'll be right back with Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back at the State Department in Washington, D.C., the Harry S.
Truman Building with the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. What's the job of
the secretary of state or the administration in selling its position? I mean,
the polls say they're down on Iraq. The American public is not supportive. Is
that your problem?
RICE: Well, it is important for the secretary of state, for the president, for
all of us to -- to talk to the American people constantly and consistently about
what it is we're trying to do, because these are difficult times. Nobody likes
to see the -- the loss of life that...
KING: The life (ph).
RICE: ... we see (ph). And so we have to get out. We have to talk about the
great, dramatic movement that is going on in democracy. And we have to make the
case to the American people that we do -- we do know sometimes in history,
democracies are more peaceful.
When you have a situation in which you have the spread of democracy in a place
like the Middle East, then you're going to have a different channel for all of
that hatred and venom right now which is being channeled into terrorism. It's
being channeled into people who fly airplanes into buildings on a fine September
day.
And we're recognizing that over the years when we didn't speak out for democracy
in the Middle East, we were not actually getting stability. We were getting a
kind of malignancy underneath. And we just -- we have to make that change.
KING: But why have we -- hasn't it been made? Why -- what doesn't the American
-- why doesn't the American public, in your opinion, get it? RICE: Well, you
know what? I think actually the American public does understand the...
KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
RICE: Well, when you talk to people, when you look at what happened in the
campaign, where the president made this case. Americans, I think, are very proud
of what we are doing in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. But it's hard. And I
recognize the struggle that people have internally, that we all have internally,
about the fact that we have lost life in order to move forward.
But after September 11, I think we recognized that we were going to have to have
a different kind of Middle East in order to leave a permanent peace for our
children.
KING: Does public opinion affect you?
RICE: The president is determined to lead values and from principles. He was
elected by the American people not to read the polls on any given day but to
lead in the way that American presidents have led when they are at their best.
And that is to speak out for America's role in the spread of democratic values
and freedom and liberty, understanding that when the world is freer, we are more
secure. And when the world is less free, we are more vulnerable.
When you listen -- we talk about the real threats out there today, you talk
about a North Korea. Why do we worry so much about North Korea? They're a
closed, non-transparent society with, potentially, a nuclear weapon.
When you look at the Middle East, to be absent of democracy there that has led
people to economies that are 20 -- 22 of them have a gross domestic product less
than that of Spain and where anger and hatred is being fueled so that we
experience something like September 11.
If you contrast that with Europe now, where 60 years ago nobody would have said
that Europe was going to be peaceful. But now when you have democracies
throughout Europe, do we fear, somehow, war in Europe any longer? No. Do we fear
Europe attacking us or using military force? No. There is a clear link between
the spread of democracy and our own security.
And so that's what we have to keep our eyes on. And I know it's hard. And I know
that this is a generational struggle. But America has never gotten tired and
quit early. That's not who we are. It took us a long time to get to a Europe in
which the Soviet Union collapsed peacefully and which we now go and celebrate
democracy in Georgia or Latvia. But the sacrifice was worth it, because our --
our -- people are much more secure and much freer.
KING: What do you make, Madam Secretary, of violence as an answer? Well, we were
born in violence, right? We (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That fellow, when in the course of
human events.
RICE: Yes.
KING: We have a Second Amendment. People can own guns. By the way, what do you
think about gun control?
RICE: The way I come out of my own personal experience, in which in Birmingham,
Alabama, my father and his friends defended our community in 1962 and 1963
against White Knight Riders by going to the head of the community, the head of
the cul-de-sac, and sitting there, armed. And so I'm very concerned about any
abridgement of the Second Amendment.
I'll tell you that I know that if Bull Conner had had lists of -- of registered
weapons, I don't think my father and his friends would have been sitting at the
head of the community, defending the community.
KING: So you would not change the Second Amendment? You would not...
RICE: I also don't think we get to pick and choose from the Constitution. The
Second Amendment is as important as the First Amendment.
KING: But doesn't having the guns, while it's protection, also leads to people
killing people?
RICE: Well, obviously, the sources of violence are many, and we need to -- to
get at the source of the violence. Obviously, I'm very much in favor of things
like background checks, and you know, controlling it at gun shows. And there are
lots of things we can do.
But we have to be very careful when we start abridging rights that our Founding
Fathers thought very important. On this one, I think that they understood that
there might be circumstances that people like my father experienced in
Birmingham, Alabama, when in fact, the police weren't going to protect you.
KING: Did you see him take the gun?
RICE: Oh, absolutely. Every -- every night he and his -- he and his friends kind
of organized a little brigade.
KING: How old were you?
RICE: I was 8. Eight years old.
KING: You remember that?
RICE: I remember it very, very well.
KING: Did you understand it? And 8-year-old? Why?
RICE: I -- I understood that something was deeply wrong in Birmingham, Alabama.
When I didn't have a white classmate until we moved to Denver, Colorado. I knew
that these were separate societies. Our parents -- I grew up in a very nice,
sheltered little middle class community in Birmingham. My mother was a
schoolteacher, and my father was a minister and a high school guidance
counselor. And I'm still friends with a lot of the kids from that community.
And we recognized that we had very special circumstances. Our parents told us.
All right. Maybe that you can't have a hamburger at the Woolworth's lunch
counter. And it may be that you can't go to this amusement park, Kiddieland. But
don't worry. You could do anything you want. Your horizons should be limitless
in America. And we believed it.
KING: Or as Dick Redman (ph), why would you want to eat a hamburger (ph)? We'll
be right back with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with the secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice. The job itself,
is it -- the travel I mean. You have -- you couldn't do, or could you, if you
were married with children?
RICE: Well, I think I would manage to do it if I were married with children.
Other people managed to do it, married with children.
KING: Young children.
RICE: Well, I don't know. I've always said -- my life turned like I think it was
supposed to turn out. And so I'm -- I'm very happy doing this job. The travel is
right now fun. I don't know how I'll be when I'm hear a year from now talking
about what'll it'll be 465 days. Maybe a year from now, I'll tired of the
travel.
But I really love it. And I like getting out to different places. First of all,
I like going to foreign countries. I've been a specialist in foreign affairs.
Secondly, I like going out and representing the United States and talking to
different people about what we're trying to do.
There's such excitement out there right now about the democracy agenda. There's
such excitement about the fact that, in places like Lebanon and Afghanistan,
places that -- in Iraq, places that perhaps we never even thought would see
democracy, that democracy is starting to bloom.
And then I like getting out and talking to our men and women in the field. We
have a lot of fine foreign service, civil service people. One thing that's not
well understood is we have a lot of foreign service nationals. That is, people
who are citizens of the countries in which we are headquartered, who work for
us. And many of them have worked for many, many years.
KING: We pay them?
RICE: We do. And they are some of the most loyal and wonderful people. So I love
getting out and seeing all of those people. KING: I've had other government
officials tell me that the biggest mistake they made prior to going into
government was critical -- being critical of government employees, bureaucrats
and the like. They are generally very hard workers.
RICE: They are very hard working people. The United States is very fortunate in
our civil service, our foreign service, our military. We have people who, in
many ways, give their lives to public service. They don't do it because it
brings glory or because it brings money.
KING: Money.
RICE: They do it because they want to change the world.
And one of the exciting things about being secretary of state right now is that
when I talk to our people out in the field, I say, you know, "I taught
people like you, who went into the foreign service, the civil service because
they wanted to change the world. And we have a chance to change the world for
the better, because this is really an historic moment."
And people respond to that. These are hard working, really dedicated --
dedicated patriots.
KING: Is there a lot of red tape on the job?
RICE: Well, there's a -- there's a fair amount of red tape. But I was in a
university. There's certainly red tape in universities, too. There's no reason
to be frustrated.
KING: Also, you -- as I read about your travels, you meet with heads of state.
RICE: Yes.
KING: Aren't you supposed to meet with foreign ministers?
RICE: Well, I have excellent foreign minister colleagues. And people -- you
know, people to whom I'm particularly close, like the British foreign secretary,
Jack Straw. My colleagues -- I had a wonderful experience recently when I went
to Latin America. I flew from Colombia to the communities of democracy in Chile
with a wonderful woman who's the foreign minister of Colombia, Foreign Minister
Barco. And then flew back to El Salvador with the foreign minister of El
Salvador.
So I have some great colleagues among the foreign ministers. But it is also very
nice that when I go to places, heads of state have been -- have been willing to
spend time with me.
KING: What do you think of the Blair reelection?
RICE: Well, the British -- British elections are very interesting. They're
pretty intense, because they're short. But Prime Minister Blair is someone who
has also stood on principle. And he has understood and has communicated, I
think, so well that the great democracies, those of us who are lucky enough to
live on the right side of freedom's divide, have an obligation to those who are
on the wrong side of freedom's divide.
And I've often heard him talk about the fact that, had people abandoned Great
Britain in its hour of need, Britain would not be free today. And so whether it
is Iraq or Afghanistan, he's been a real -- a real stalwart for freedom.
KING: He also had troubles selling it.
RICE: Well, I think selling it is the wrong word. These are complicated issues.
And it is hard, because these struggles are hard. And people feel the intense
loss of life and see the violence. And that's hard.
What leaders have to do, and what the president has done, President Bush, and
what Prime Minister Blair has done so well, is to keep reminding us of what the
horizon looks like.
Now, we've had struggles in this country. I've often wondered, in the darkest
hours of the Civil War, what people were saying to Abraham Lincoln about whether
this was going to turn out all right. Or when George Washington lost New York,
were there people who were saying, "You know, that Declaration of
Independence, that was maybe not such a great idea after all"?
So...
KING: Good point.
RICE: ...these -- these great, historical changes are always hard. They're
almost always violent. But if you do your work well, in the long run they're
almost always worth it.
KING: Ninety-five percent of the American press was against Lincoln.
RICE: Interesting.
KING: We'll be right back with Condoleezza Rice right after this.
COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Madam Secretary -- you like that, huh? Madam Secretary --
Condole -- they'd have loved that back in Birmingham.
RICE: Right.
KING: The perception that the United States is pushing this, that we are the, as
one phrase called it in the paper, the revolution export service, that we're
really -- you will be democratized.
RICE: I -- I just find it's extremely patronizing to assume that people don't
want to be free. And they only will look at freedom if the United States somehow
pushes it. You have to impose tyranny. You don't impose democracy.
If you ask people, "Do you want to be able to say what you think? Do you
want to be able to worship as you please? Do you want to be able to educate your
boys and girls? Do you want to be free from the arbitrary knock of the secret
police at night?" People across the globe -- I don't care what culture they
come from; I don't care what language they speak, what religion they espouse or
how literate or illiterate they are -- people know deep in their souls that that
is the height of human dignity.
And we saw it, Larry. We saw it when Afghans went out to vote in huge numbers
along dusty roads. I've been to Afghanistan. There are few paved roads in
Afghanistan. They walked for miles to vote.
In Iraq, where they faced down terrorists, who literally told them, if they
voted, they would die. And they still voted.
Where they've gone into the streets in Lebanon, where they went into the streets
in Ukraine and in Georgia, who are we to assume that somehow there are people on
some corner of the Earth that don't want the human dignity that comes with
freedom and liberty?
KING: Then who are the suicide bombers? Don't they want freedom?
RICE: The suicide bombers in a place like Iraq are people, many of them, who
were the same people who were oppressing their fellow Iraqis under Saddam
Hussein.
KING: They're oppressors.
RICE: And who would like to have a return to the bad old days of Saddam
Hussein's rule. Or they are terrorists, like Zarqawi, who want to impose their
own view of a great religion -- which, by the way, is a perversion of Islam --
that would take people back to a time when women were in bondage, to a time when
only one very narrow view of religion was tolerated. That's who the suicide
bombers are. That's who the people who are killing, by the way, innocent Iraqis
who simply want a better life.
KING: And they totally believe this. They are -- it's their distorted view of a
religion.
RICE: Well, it is clearly a distorted view of religion, because Islam is a great
and peaceful religion. And it is a religion that we in the United States respect
fully. The fastest growing -- one of the fastest-growing religions in the United
States is Islam. And if you go to almost any community in many of our cities,
you will see mosques, and you will see that people who practice this great
religion are a part of America's great democracy. That's the way that it should
be. And I would hope, if anything is understood, that America, which values
religious diversity, values this great religion that is Islam.
KING: She's giving us an extended time tonight. We'll be back with our remaining
moments right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice in the Treaty Room at
the State Department. What's with the skirt and the boots?
(LAUGHTER)
RICE: You know, it was cold in Germany. I lived in Colorado a good bit of time.
You put on -- Larry, ever since I was a little girl, I liked to shop. OK? There,
I've said it.
KING: You're kidding.
RICE: No! No! My mother and I -- my father was, as I said, a minister. And so my
father would go to work on his sermons on Saturday morning, and my mother and I
would head downtown to go shopping.
KING: And boots was a thing?
RICE: Well, not in Alabama, but certainly in Colorado.
KING: What, did you think you would get the better press that got? The pictures
all over the world?
RICE: No, of course not. In fact, somebody said to me, you know, your picture's
on the front page of the Washington Post. And I thought, well, what did I do
now? I guess I wore boots. I guess that's what it was.
KING: You didn't think of it?
RICE: No, of course not.
KING: Does it mean you would not do it again?
RICE: No, of course not. I'll wear whatever I'm comfortable wearing.
KING: In your own private life, did you ever want to get married? Want to have
children? Want to...
RICE: Well, my view is that you don't get married in the abstract. You get
married to someone.
KING: Yeah, I've heard that.
RICE: So...
KING: You haven't met him yet.
RICE: No, I haven't. It doesn't mean it won't happen some day. But I'm a deeply
religious person. And my life has, I think, unfolded as it was supposed to. I
have certainly no complaints about the way that it has unfolded. I had
extraordinarily loving parents who just believed in me and told me I could do
anything and gave me every opportunity to do whatever I wanted to do.
I have to this day, a wonderful family. I sometimes read I have no family. I
have -- you know, in the South and particularly in African-American families,
extended family is really important. And I have aunts and uncles and cousins who
are really, really close to me and marvelous friends. And friends who go back to
every stage in my life from the time I was a kid to college and graduate school.
It's terrific.
KING: But you're open to Mr. Right, if Mr. Right comes along.
(LAUGHTER)
RICE: I don't have much time right now, but sure. Who wouldn't be.
KING: You could meet someone on a plane...
(LAUGHTER)
RICE: Who wouldn't be.
KING: Did life go the way you wanted it to?
RICE: Life has unfolded for me in ways that I absolutely love.
KING: Do you feel lucky?
RICE: I think I'm blessed.
KING: Better word. Do you ever doubt your faith?
RICE: I have -- I can honestly say I've never doubted the existence of God. Like
all people of faith who think, I have had questions from time to time. And one
of the great contributions that my father made to me -- my father was a
theologian -- is that he let me have those questions.
And I can remember from the time I was a very young kid debating with him about
the Bible and debating about this aspect of Jesus' life or that aspect of the
apostle Paul, and therefore wanting to read more and wanting to understand more.
And he gave me a great gift there, because he never made me feel that my faith
and my intellect were at war with one another. He always made me believe and let
me believe that God gave you a brain, and he expects you to use it.
KING: Even after 9/11?
RICE: Especially after 9/11. I think after 9/11, we all needed our faith very,
very strongly. I remember in the days immediately after, there wasn't much left
except to pray. And again, I remember Abraham Lincoln saying that there are
times when you have to get on your knees, because your intellect won't fully
explain. And whether it was 9/11, or in my case, the deaths of my parents, my
faith has always come through for me.
KING: Thank you, Madame Secretary.
RICE: Thank you.
KING: Always good seeing you.
RICE: Thank you.
KING: The secretary of State from the Treaty Room at the State Department,
Condoleezza Rice.
Tomorrow night, John Walsh -- a man who dedicates his life to trying to catch
bad people who do bad things to other people. John Walsh tomorrow night. "NEWSNIGHT"
with Aaron Brown is next.
Good night.
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